Here is a short clip of a project I am doing; converting a Bi4 engine to 3d geometry (for another project) :smiley:
The engine is only partially scanned, all parts will eventually be scanned / 3d modelled. :smiley:
Wow! For a Bi4 from billet? :fiufiu:
Maurizio
great!!!!!! :up: :up: :up: :up:
Are you doing a reverse engineering?
I am not doing a reverse engineeering, but rather an accurate external representation of the Bi4, for designing a frame/surrounding equipment, in a 3d environment :smiley:
Nice one Duranti!!
:cina:
It is truly sad how people only think of 3d scanning as a Chinese invention/activity, it's not.
All major motorcycle/car/aeroplane manufacturers (and so many other industries) around the world use 3d scanning technology to inspect machined parts/castings, digitize handmade prototypes, inspect wear-rates/tribology results, surface analysis, crash analysis and so on.
I've seen Chinese produced parts using brands of major motorcycle manufacturers (including Gilera), without permission/licenses, and it makes me sick to think that parts like that could end up on one of my bikes in the future without me knowing it's an inferior Chinese ripoff, no thank you!
Back to the point; 3d scanning is not a bad thing, in the right hands!
If you are referring to the emoticon is not about China but the sign of thanks for your video .... To have you among us :up:
I deeply love Gilera, and I really enjoy 3d scanning/cad work, and now my passion gets me into trouble again, I'm sorry about that!
The emoticon should definitely be renamed to something more appropriate :smiley:
:ita
no problem continues like this :moto
For anyone interested; a few pictures from the process, I am using a Nextengine HD scanner with ProScan extension software, as well as complimentary manual measurements of critical dimensions.
For plastic and painted parts I use Talcum powder to make it easier for the scanner to capture reflecting surfaces, hence the dull milky surface of the cylinder and cambelt cover. :smiley:
nice scanning rig duranti! I wish I could have one.
I can fully appreciate your work since back in the 90ies I was doing 3D animations with softimage and SGI workstations.
Hi bigbore!
Thank you for your kind comment, much appreciated sir :smiley:
For this purpose the Nextengine is very good, one of the best value for money scanners before going into industrial/specialty scanners, I have alot of fun with it!
I can imagine that it must have been very interesting to work with Softimage/SGI workstations, high end software/hardware, I have always been very impressed by 3d graphics/animation artists, it takes alot of skill and talent to do work like that! :smiley:
Duranti, may I ask you how much does it cost a scanner like your? It's a really interesting item...... [banana]
Ah, another question, how much time needs the scanner to "copy" the part (obviously it depends also from the part)?
Good evening Matte,
My version of Nextengine, the now older, HD version, you can get them around Europe for maybe around 1200-1500 Euro used. I bought mine used for around 2500 Euro in Norway, but it included additional software/hardware.
The new version "Ultra HD", costs 3000 dollars new, and 1000 dollars for the ProScan extension software, this software allows you to scan bigger objects without having the make multiple scans and align them manually, very handy for motorcycle related objects.
Generally the HD version is more than sufficient for most jobs (together with ProScan), especially when supplement the scan with manual micrometer/vernier/height caliper measurements of critical areas.
The big different between HD and Ultra HD is the density of the polygons in the mesh (and ultimately accuracy), but it all depends on the use. A very dense mesh will require a very strong computer, and is not required unless you need micro detailing.
If you were to scan general motorcycle parts, the HD version will give superb results :smiley:
Matte, I only saw now that there was a second part of the question, sorry! :smiley:
The time to scan a part like the cylinder would be approximately 30 minutes for a complete scan from all sides to make a watertight external surface.
I asked a company in Norway, a couple of years ago, how much it would cost to make a scan of the Bi4 engine, and they came back with a price of approximately 2500 Euro, crazy!
Duranti, thanks a lot for your double, and complete, answer :smiley:
Thanks a lot for sharing, very interesting! I suppose that this scans you do are then usable to reproduce on a 3D printer! There are some parts that are almost impossible to found so it would be very nice to have them and produce some spare parts, thinking for example ad eye of the chain (CRUNA) or scroll chain.... Not sure though if it's worth it in terms of costs. :beer:
Hi lucakilm,
Thanks for you kind words, I appreciate it!
A chain slider would be quite easy, and cheap, to produce in small numbers.
I would approach a project like that in the following way:
1. 3d scan (or manually measure) the chain slider.
2. Reverse engineer the slider in a 3d cad software (for example Autodesk Fusion or Onshape, which is around 300 Euro per year) to get the best results.
3. 3d print a negative mold in Polypropylene, or another material that has a higher temperature resistance than the curing temperature of the material to be poured into the mold.
4. Spray anti-adhesion spray into mold before pouring the liquid material (85 shore Urethane for example) into the mold.
For very smooth mold surfaces it is possible to "acetone mist" the mold, it will give excellent surfaces, but it's hazardous and it stinks! :smiley:
Another way would be to place the chain slider in a water tight box, spray the part and mould with anti-adhesion spray, pour the liquid material into the box, and de-mold after curing is finished, that way you will get a negative mold. Just make sure to check curing temperature for the liquid material, it could cure/solidify at a higher temperature than the mold can handle, causing distortion in the mold. This way requires no 3d scanner or 3d software :smiley:
Also lucakilm, yes definitely, any "watertight" (or fully closed mesh) 3d scan can in principle be 3d printed :smiley:
:up: :ciao:
Thanks Duranti!
My pleasure! :beer:
A few pictures of the scanned cylinder alongside the cad model. Internal geometry of the cylinder is not included, for my project it's only the external geometry that is useful. :smiley:
The valve inspection cover; the scan was quite coarse just to use as a visual aid, all measuring was done using a vernier caliper.
The beautiful alternator cover :smiley:
The cover is surpisingly complex with features that are not obvious to the eye, also I appreciate more the details in relation to the casting process, there is almost not a single flat surface :smiley:
great, really great work duranti :ok:
I'm eager to get a complete 3D model of a Bi4 engine for the sole pourpose of......... no!, I'm not gonna tell it :-X
Thank you very much for you kind comment bigbore, I appreciate it! :beer:
I will tell you all about what the 3d model will be used for after I have scanned and 3d modelled all the parts :smiley:
During the process I will post picture updates of all the finished 3d models/scanned parts comparions, and at the end I will make a nice presentation of the complete engine. :smiley:
You are working really good, bravo....
Thank you Matte, I appreciate it! :beer:
For now it's the basic geometry that is modelled, I will be refining the models when everything is scanned/modelled, it will be more accurate in details for the final result :smiley:
It is a pleasure to scan/model one of the finest engines ever produced, I love the Bi4, it is a masterpiece! :ita
Great job Duranti, you are one of us! You aren't a simply gilerista, but you are a really gil-erotic! Do you understand?
:nopanic: :ballo: :moto
Good evening 33new, thank you for your excellent comment, I really appreciate it!
Yes, our love for the Bi4 is genuine, I have been a big Gilera fan (especially all Gilera Rally, and Bimota GB1) since 1989, and consider myself crazy about Gilera! :beer:
Latest updates on the Bi4 engine scanning/modelling! :moto
The left hand crankcase cover is full of details, I am very impressed by how clean the cover looks despite of all the details, drafts, fillets and so on, and I have only tried to replicate just the outside surfaces!
getting closer
Great work [banana]
Thank you for your kind comments, much appreciated!
I have some experience with steel castings, but the Bi4 parts are more complex than I initially expected, and also the esthetics of these castings is magnificent!
I get the feeling that there is both work by machine, as well as hand, to complete the molds to created the castings, absolutely wonderful engineering, it is easy to see that there is alot of passionate work put into the Bi4! :smiley:
Another update; the iconic cambelt cover! :smiley:
Just wondering; does anyone know which font is used for the Bi4 text on the cambelt cover, I can't seem to find it anywhere? :smiley:
I don't know if it's simple to find this information, I hope someone can help you.
uhmmm... could be a slightly modified original font.
Gilera font has change during the years, let's say that until late 80' the font was "clarendon serial heavy"
later, appearance changed slightly.
A font can be downloaded from the other gilera fan forum: http://www.motoclubgilera4t.it/forum/index.php?topic=2043.0 (http://www.motoclubgilera4t.it/forum/index.php?topic=2043.0) but i don't know wich one it is.
othervise give it a try to this: https://www.fontsquirrel.com/matcherator (https://www.fontsquirrel.com/matcherator)
Thank you Matte and bigbore for your help, it is much appreciated! :beer:
The original Bi4 logo seems almost like custom letters specifically made for this logo, I will try to run it through the matcherator and hopefully find the right font, thanks again!!
chances are that the mold was modified by hand later.
I'm not sure (can't check right now) but my belt cover don't have that logo
Thank you for the interesting post bigbore :smiley:
If I remember correctly the covers came in natural black, painted grey/silver, as well as the split cover for the Saturno, but I was not aware that there were covers without the text, nice, I will have to do more research on that, thanks :beer:
Also, I have decided to trace the text for the Bi4 logo since I am unable to find the correct font, but it should be easy to make.
I've checked both beltcover in my possession, non logo Bi-4 on it.
Let's see what other Bi-4 owners have to say about this matter.
Hei ragazzi, ve lo dico in italiano così non avete scuse: il carter copricinghia del vostro Bi-4 ha per caso impresso la scritta Bi-4?
indicate moto e versione motore please
Thank you for your effort bigbore, I appreciate it, and I look forward to seeing what people say about this! :beer:
I traced the logo, and made a cad version, there are some small deviations, mainly due to the small size of the letters (and slight prespective of the picture), the letters are approximately 14mm tall, however it's beautiful how the machining details are captured in the pressure cast plastic! :smiley:
Domani do un occhiata al Dakota...
Tomorrow I'll take a look at Dakota's carter
Another update; this time the right hand side crankcase cover. :smiley:
This cover is by far the most complex part of the parts I've replicated in 3D, there are many features, curves, fillet-transitions, and surprises, it's very interesting to model something someone else has designed, I have learned alot from just this part!
The last picture is with the scanned part, and 3D cad part, intersecting, this is a very useful way to check deviation. Most high end foundries these days use 3d scanners to check the "as-cast" part against the theoretically correct 3D model.
Remember this is not reverse engineering, just an accurate (as possible) representation of the exterior of the Bi4, and either way it would be impossible to capture a 100% perfect design intent, only the original engineers know the secrets! :smiley:
Last but not least; wow, I am so impressed by the beauty (and of course the engineering) of the Bi4 parts! :ita
Very well detailed, superb work.
Thank you Matte, I really appreciate your comments, this project is a big learning experience for me, and this cover especially was a challenge with all the details, drafts, fillets, but it turned out good!
At the moment I am locating all the small parts to complete the external surfaces of the engine, I am planning on scanning/modelling every part that makes up the outside of the Bi4, it's a big task, but as an enthusiast it is worth the effort. :smiley:
Next up will be the cylinder head, hopefully I'll have it ready in the next few days :moto
Hi Duranti, really nice job,
I'm worry to understand if it's really possible use the file you achieve for reproduce the elements by milling or CNC machine is it possible in your opinion?
Sorry for so stupid question but i'm really not expertise in this field.
Great! go ahed.
I don't think it's possible, he doesn't use reverse engineering. Practically, his software makes a 3D photo of the part but without getting direct measures of the item. Is it right?
Good morning yumax and Matte :smiley:
Thank you for your messages!
Matte is correct, the objective of this project is not reverse engineering, the objective is to create an accurate representation of the external geometry of the Bi4.
However, 3d scanning is widely used for reverse engineering of cast parts. And in order to correctly reverse engineer a cast (and further machined) part, you would have to combine the 3d scanned information, with coordinate measuring machine (CMM) information.
This way you capture the "organic" information of the casting geometry (which can deviate from one casting to another) using 3D scanning, and "cnc machined" (same numerical info every time relative to a set datum point) information using CMM.
I only have a 3D scanner (with max 0.1-0.2 mm surface accuracy) at my disposal, so I am supplementing the 3D scanned information with critical manual measurements using vernier calipers/micrometers and so on.
The parts I'm modelling can be cnc machined, but the information of the machined areas that I've captured using the 3D scanner are not accurate enough to produce a perfectly fitting part. Also the geometry of the models have been optimized for the casting process, and it would not be a sensible starting point for a fully cnc machined part.
Almost anything is possible though with a 5 axis cnc milling machine, and super-finishing, but the cost would be a show stopper for small series part production. It would only be feasible if you are machining molds for a larger production run of castings. :smiley:
My application of the 3D models will be less critical, but I still need all the attachment points on the engine to be as accurate as possible, so I will be refining the dimensions of the 3D model at the end to get as close as possible to the fully assembled "real" engine. :moto
An fantastic alternative to "machined from billet" these days, is to 3D print a positive of the part (the part itself), using a specialized wax type filament, to be enable creation of prototype/small-series investment casting! :smiley:
Citazione di: Duranti il 07 Luglio 2018, 09:37:01
An fantastic alternative to "machined from billet" these days, is to 3D print a positive of the part (the part itself), using a specialized wax type filament, to be enable creation of prototype/small-series investment casting! :smiley:
This is a really nice idea....... [banana]
Hi Duranti, thnks a lot for answear and clear info.
Fantastic!!
You are very welcome yumax :beer:
This time it's the top cover for the cylinder head, wow, not easy to replicate this part, the most difficult thing with reverse engineering is certainly how to identify geometry, and there are many intersecting shapes that terminate into eachother, I got some gray hairs from this one, haha :stars: But it turned out pretty good!
Next up is the cylinder head itself, it will be an interesting (and demanding) part to model, stay tuned :smiley:
wonderful.
:cinema:
Great works...
many years ago:
http://www.gilera-bi4.it/public/forum/index.php/topic,3596.msg36955.html#msg36955 (http://www.gilera-bi4.it/public/forum/index.php/topic,3596.msg36955.html#msg36955)
but for time, work and budget, i stop it.
i buy David Laser Scanner, & Arduino for automatize the scanner, but i have no many time, so i stop it.
My dream of 3D scanner Bi4 models so i see in you, for many project in my mind, as for example, an 3D explosiv pieces pdf book, or others.
If you want condivide it, as it's the spirit of this forum, and that i substain, you can if you want, condivide your 3Dfiles in various format.
Thank f y attention.
'AO.
Good evening CFASD,
Thank you for your positive message :smiley:
You have done fantastic work with your 3D models, as well as really nice rendering work, excellent! I am sorry your work stopped, but I understand that this type of work takes alot of time and dedication! Very interesting to hear that you used Arduino to automate the scanning process, I have thought of something similar, but never had the chance to try it.
I already invested around 200 hours (and many hundreds of Euro in software licenses) of work into scanning, measuring and modeling the Bi4 parts you see in this thread. It's very time consuming and specialized work.
Regarding the Bi4 3D models; I might consider sharing a model for public use, but I will have to see how sucessful to end-result will be.
Wow, the head covers are fully detailed and well done, congratulations for the final result.
Thank you Matte, I always appreciate your comments!
Sorry for the long time since the last update, tomorrow I will be finished with the cylinder head, it has been the most complex part by far of this project (it has taken a ton of time model, really difficult work), and it will be detailed to the same level as the cylinder head cover :smiley:
At the end of the project I will make high quality renderings of the complete engine, hopefully I will be able to contribute something valuable to the forum. :moto
:ok:
what type or software specialise you'd used?
new 3D printers and systems/technology, such as laser sintering prototipes, with micro layers, it's a good idea, but the budget it's high.
there are 3D printing system for lost wax casting.
'AO.
Hi CFASD,
There are so many interesting technologies available today, of special interest is of course, as you have mentioned; 3D printed lost wax parts. This opens up to massive reductions in leadtime and cost when developing a product, prototypes can quickly be realized in the "final" material, and real world testing can be performed at a fraction of the cost/time that it takes during normal development/production procedures!
The software I use for 3D modelling is primarily Autodesk Fusion, and Inventor (when my friend lets me borrow his, it's too expensive for an enthusiast like me). For 3D scanning I use the proprietary Nextengine software, including Nextengine ProScan capability extension software (which allows higher accuracy and larger objects to be scanned). :smiley:
And now, here is the Bi4 cylinder head, wow, this was a pain in the neck to model (and I have only replicated the external geometry!), I have enormous respect for the engineers and craftsmen who realized this part, I bow to those people!!!
The last two pictures show the scanned casting and 3D model intersecting eachother, there are some deviations, this is not exact science, but it's as accurate as I can get the model relative to the cast part with the equipment I have at my disposal.
Also the modelling itself was very complex, especially with the tangency between the different geometry (which of course needs to be as good as possible for casting a part), but I am happy with the result, and it is much more accurate than what I need it to be for my application. :smiley:
Again, the Bi4 parts are absolutely beautiful, it's easy to see that there is alot of passion and knowledge behind these parts, and it's also easy to understand why the owners of these engines have a special relationship with them!
Next up is the crankcase, will be very interesting work! :moto
Another great creation, full of difficult parts to reply, bravissimo. The finale result, the entire engine, will be spectacular........
And now for a little sidestep in the project while I'm modelling the crankcase (which takes much more time than anticipated):
I present one of my plans related to the scanning/modelling of the Bi4; to make a 1:3 scale display model! :smiley:
I am going to 3D print all the parts of the Bi4 and assemble into a 1:3 scale model and combine them with a pedestal, to place on the shelf in my workroom, all for the fun of it, and for the enjoyment of the beautiful looks and curves of the Bi4!
The pictures show a rough print of the cambelt cover, the final version will likely be "acetone vapoured" for a smooth finish :smiley:
My 3D printer is an Ultimaker 2+, and I'll probably be printing the project in Polycarbonate for a longlasting display model.
It will be a fun project to put together, but all the models need to be optimized first before 3D printing to get the best possible fit, and when they are optimized I will be printing day and night to be able to put together this little beauty quickly!
Go ahead duranti and work hard.
I think all parts will be ok just in time for christmas... can you imagine? An amazing 1:3 scale Bi4 kit ready to assemble for every Bi4 enthusiast!! a must have surely (and you will be our Santa giving us all .STL file.... right?).
Hi bigbore,
Perhaps Santa will consider putting together a small series of 1:3 scale Bi4 kits for enthusiasts who would like to help Duranti finance the next project (where the Bi4 3D model will be used) :smiley:
Here we go! A custom made 50cc cylinder, currently running in real size.
Trond please, have a look just for fun ... Exhaust, transfer and porting are in the final shape yet.
Maurizio
Maurizio,
WOW, a perfect example what is possible with ingenuity, dedication, and knowledge of how to make an idea into a real life object, magnificent work!
I have always wanted to do the same thing as you have done, and seeing your project really makes me want to start planning a project of my own!
With 3D printed models it is the perfect opportunity to do bench flow testing directly on the 3D printed model, and the shapes and sizes of the ports can be optimized to a high level before going to the foundry, which is a huge time and cost saving. There are so many possibilities related to 3D printing a cylinder. :smiley:
May I ask if you used lost wax casting, sand casting, or gravity die casting, for creating the real size running cylinder? Also, may I ask which material you chose for the cast part?
Wonderful work Maurizio, I am very inspired, thank you for sharing the picture! :falice:
Unfortunately I'm not the creator of such a beautiful piece. It's a friend of mine, definitely a very talented guy in mechanics and related items as welding, turning, milling, two stroke tuning and so on. He built all the single negative parts useful for the sand casting giving the optimal shape and direction of all the ducts. The result is a near 20 hp at 16.000 rpm on a Dyno test bench. In the picture you can notice the piston-port version, yet been sand casted and soon available after the nikasil deposition. The current standard unit is without inlet port, useful both for rotary disc and reed valve engines. I know it is under tests by the well known Martijn Stehouer special parts supplier in The Nederlands for a close incoming marketing.
I agree with you that 3D printing give you the most realistic idea of the final product and give you the opportunity to evaluate any needed modification and make them in real time, during bench flow tests also. The real size 3D unit needs more than one night of printer job.
The aluminium alloy is the usual for this applications. I don't know the components percentages.
I'm eagerly waiting to see your 1:3 Bi4 finished. Go ahead!
Maurizio
Citazione di: Duranti il 20 Luglio 2018, 19:48:17
Hi bigbore,
Perhaps Santa will consider putting together a small series of 1:3 scale Bi4 kits for enthusiasts who would like to help Duranti finance the next project (where the Bi4 3D model will be used) :smiley:
Santa and christmas spirit is dead [sad]
:rotolol:
if it will fit in my always thight budget I'll be glad to contribute to your next project, you deserve it :ok:
Hi bigbore,
I am sorry for disappointing you, but I am sure Santa will not disappoint this Christmas! :smiley:
For now there still remains some time before I have modelled all the parts, and I am still missing a bit of small parts to complete the external geometry of the Bi4, I will scan and model these parts as they arrive in the post! :smiley:
Also at the end I will have to make sure that all the dimensions for the mounting positions are as close to the original as possible, hopefully my scanning, measuring and modelling are up to the standard!
Thank you bigbore for your support in the form of posts and comments in this thread, I appreciate it! :beer:
Maurizio,
Your friend is certainly a highly skilled engineer!
Nearly 20 hp from a 50cc engine is GP level performance, and with today's material technology and coatings it is likely to be reliable horsepower as well, also the Nikasil coating will be a valuable addition to keep friction and wear, and heat to a minimum.
Interesting to hear that the inlet port is not included to allow for different inlet configurations, it wil certainly widen the potential customer base, and give more room for adaptation to existing engine configurations. I hope all goes well with the testing at Martijn Stehouer's, and I hope your friend will get great benefits for his efforts!
Yes, 3D printing a large object like a cylinder would indeed take quite some time, and it would need monitoring (for fused deposition modeling) to make sure that the print is without problems. Stereolithography printing would certainly be the best alternative to get the best possible print for Investment casting from a cylinder pattern, it involves more cost, but the results are close to perfect.
Thank you Maurizio for your interest in my project, I will keep you updated! :smiley:
Trond
if I can do a Nordwest 1:10 we'll go around the house.... :jump:
Hi siplitaro,
It would definitely be possible to do a 1:10 Nordwest (especially with the reduced detail level required), but it would take a lot of time! :smiley:
Here is a project I did some years ago when I had full access to more advanced software, I wanted to create a 100+ hp motocross bike (a long term dream), and I wanted to use a very common engine, the Yamaha FZ6, and with chassis parts from a Honda XR650R, and this is how far I came before I ran out of time, money and ultimately interest.
It would have been a really fun bike to ride, with lots of power, and very cheap to run and maintain. :smiley:
But it took a lot of time and effort to scan and model engine/parts, and design the missing components, FEA analysis, dynamic simulations, a big project, especially for a single person.
I am now only doing projects that I know I am able to finish, haha!
Almost anything is possible if you are 100% dedicated, and willing to spend alot of time on it. :smiley:
PS: I'm working hard on the Bi4 crankcase!
I was joking, for me it is a pleasure that you dedicate to bi-4, congratulations for your work :jump:
Thank you for your support siplitaro!
The Bi4 is one of the most beautiful engines ever made, and it's worth every minute of working effort to put this 3D model together :smiley:
A 1:10 Nordwest would be very cool though! :wink:
Duranti, you are really powerful with those software's, congratulations (I had my little satisfactions with proengineering a long time ago, at the university). You are a temptation for me to start again using it....... :fuma: [CFASD] :moto
Thank you for your kind comments Matte, I appreciate it!
Doing engineering work has been my job the last 17 years (and workshop duty before that), and it's also been a big interest of mine to do personal projects in cad.
The big difference now, relative to when I started with cad, is how accesible technology has become, with very powerful cad software (online/could based licenses) available for anyone at a fraction of the price of just 10 years ago, and very simple online machining services (like Protolabs/Firstcut), as well as cheap and powerful 3D printers.
There are so many motorcycle related projects are now possible to realize even for hobby enthusiasts! :smiley:
Matte; you should definitely get back into cad, there are great online cad software like Autodesk Fusion or Onshape that are cheap and very powerful. Combine that with an online machining service, and you have the possibility to do amazing things on even a tight budget (like mine)! :up:
It's been a while since I last posted in this thread, due to focus on other things for a while now, but now the carter is modelled, and it turned out pretty good.
Modelling these carters have been a real challenge, primarilly due to locating the interfacing parts as accurately as possible to get as close to the original geometry as possible without using a CMM system. Also all the drafts/angles required to release properly from the die, as well as getting all the transitions between geometries as good as possible, has been a real challenge!
Thankfully I was able to extract the interfaces from the different parts interfacing with the carter, and use those geometries to help create the features that make up the carter. Of course there are differences in the interfaces between part and carter, for various reasons, most likely related to manufacturability, but I've managed to capture the details to a high level.
Wow, the engineering and manufacturing skills of the people involved in designing and producing these parts are amazing, I am so impressed (and I have only tried to replicate the external geometry)!
Now I am searching for the small parts that make up the rest of the external geometry of the engine, hopefully they will arrive in the post soon, and I will be posting details as soon as I am finished with them! :smiley:
Sorry for the longevity of this project, but either way; stay tuned! :moto
Wow really good work :clap: :clap:
Thank you pegaso_grigio, I'm glad you enjoy my work! :smiley:
Citazione di: pegaso_grigio il 15 Agosto 2018, 11:33:06
Wow really good work :clap: :clap:
he is not alone, even I am really fascinated by your work :ok:
Thank you yumax, I appreciate you kind comment! :smiley:
My goal for this model is to make it as accurate as possible with the hardware/software I have at my disposal, I consider it an honour to model the iconic Bi4!
Well done, my friend. Great accuracy :ballo:
Thank you Matte for your inpiring comment, very much appreciated! :beer:
I will soon post some pictures of the main assembly with nuts and bolts, and rendered, should be interesting to see. :smiley:
I experiemented a little bit with some rendering, it's far from great, and the materials/paints are not correct, but it's starting to look good :smiley:
I will start 3D printing these parts (in 1:3 or 1:4 scale) soon, it will be fun to see them coming together!
Hi Duranti, great job!!
As you may be aware the most common problem encountered by Bi4 possessors, are those blody intakes, the ones going from the engine head to the carbs.
They are definitely impossible to found and of course they cause a lot of problems.
Do you think it would be feasible to scan both types? better to scan them by stripping of the rubber or to leave it on?
I could then send the scans to a company (siliconehose-china.com perhaps) and ask for a quote for reproduction. I think it would be great to have them new!
What do you think?
Hello lucakilm,
Thank you for your kind comment, I appreciate it! :smiley:
Regarding the intake manifolds; it would certainly be possible to replicate them. And the process I would do to reverse engineer them would be the following;
1. 3D scan the manifold in it's complete state, including the rubber.
2. Strip the rubber from the aluminium "frame", and 3D scan again.
3. Figure out which material (aluminium and rubber) and hardness of rubber (using a shore durometer).
4. Model the aluminium and rubber parts, which should be quite simple.
Then comes the hard part, which is figuring out the most cost effective manufacturing method, and how many pieces are going to be produced, a factor which is usually the "make or break" factor with regards to cost, as usual; more pieces equals lower cost.
There are alternatives though, for example producing 3D printed models of the aluminium frame to enable investment casting of the "frame" in small series'.
Also, it would be possible to investment cast (or machine from billet) the die for the vulcanization process, which would require a die that can handle both the pressure and heat.
Either way it would require a certain amount of effort and financing to produce a replica of the original intake manifold.
Another alternative would be to completely redesign the intake manifold to allow for the rubber part to be mounted to both the aluminium "frame" as well as the carburators.
This would (given that there is enough space for a solution like that) be the simplest and most cost effective solution, because you could machine the aluminium "frame" from a relatively thin piece of aluminium, and you would not need to vulcanize the rubber to the frame, which would eliminate the costly pressure casting die!
Also, for the simple rubber part it would be very easy to machine a split die for pressure casting.
I think that to summarize this information; the best thing, in my opinion, would be to re-engineer the manifold (due to reasons of cost of manufacturing to the original specification), if possible.
Sorry for the long message, I hope some of this information is of use!
Please, if someone else can supplement (or disagree completely, haha) this information, please feel free to comment! :smiley:
Found someone who's already done it :smiley:
Should be a simple thing to design and manufacture.
Hey Duranti thanks a lot for your prompt and extensive response! Can really see that you're a pro!
I also think that the last alternative it's the best option, I was going to do the same when I rebuild my engine to new condition...well not me but my mechanic...The thing is that I don't know if it's important to reproduce the exact angle of the aluminium part, which would involve to make a scan anyway of the part, and than the new hose needs to be designed.
I suppose that the aluminium part, after having made a design could be easily reproduced here in Italy or elsewhere and that we could ask to the external company I mentioned to build the rubber part making these a two steps process.
Of course this will all depend if other people in the forum are interested to lower the final price.
Thanks a lot for your contribution and to waste your time with me. :ballo:
I forgot to mention how interesting that last picture you posted is! seems like an injection carburetor like the Lectron ones.
where did you get it from? impressive how many pictures you manage to find
Hi lucakilm,
It's my pleasure to respond to your post, no waste of time!
I am actually searching for the original manifold on ebay (I have only ever seen one Gilera 600 for sale in Norway, parts are not available here at all), because I am going to include it in my model, but they are difficult to find! :smiley:
Honestly I was not aware of the angle of the manifold, I will make an accurate model of this part (for the NW) when I find one, and share my findings! I'm also planning on trying to find an RC600 head and intake manifolds in the near future, and when I do I will 3D scan them, for another project related to my current 3D engine project, I'll let you know my results of the 3D scan when it happens.
I totally agree that with a proper design it should be no problem to produce both the aluminium, and rubber, parts in Italy (perhaps the best country in the world to produce motorcycle parts!), or elsewhere.
The price will definitely be reflected by the amount produced. Also many companies are not interested in spending their time programming tool paths and jigging for one offs or small series production, at least that is the mentality in Norway, I guess many other European companies are more "friendly" towards enthusiasts like us. :smiley:
Regarding the picture; I was just lucky to stumble across it on Flickr, there is a user called Martin Burrow who must be a big Nordwest fan! I believe the carburetors he's mounted are Dellorto PHFs with accelerator pumps! I an uncertain of the sizes though.
Living in Norway I have always been starved for motorcycle information, so for many years I've spent much time and money collecting all kinds of information through the internet regarding my favorite brand Gilera, and especially the Rally bikes, and also the RC750R engined Bimota GB1.
I find it satifying to share pictures and information with fellow Gilera fans. :smiley:
I'll see what can I do for the intakes ok? If I find a pair I can send them to you ok? Ciao
PM sent my friend :smiley:
Hello guys. If your initiative can help our community, I can help you find a collector to sacrifice.
io devo chiedere scusa per la mia poca "internazionalità".
Non mastico bene l'inglese e devo usare un traduttore automatico per i post di Duranti.
ne intuisco l'interesse e la passione. Senz'altro la competenza.
Alle volte però mi collego dal telefono e fare le traduzioni diventa difficile. Allora mi perdo i post e poi resto molto indietro.
Dunque, ho capito male o cercate i collettori '89 da "sacrificare"?
Se si ne ho io disponibili.
avevo iniziato un lavoro di riproduzione casalingo mai portato a termine, ne parlavamo qua. http://www.gilera-bi4.it/public/forum/index.php/topic,15642.0.html (http://www.gilera-bi4.it/public/forum/index.php/topic,15642.0.html)
esempio:
[attach=1]
[attach=2]
Se serve cerco i pezzi in garage.
Mi furono donati dall'ing. ( RC_true) come sciupabili allo scopo... essendomi io arenato sarò ben contento di destinarli a chi ne saprà fare un uso avanzato.
Sempre che abbia compreso di cosa parliamo.
Da quello che ho capito si parlava del collettore "doppio' (tipo nordwest per capirci).
Ma credo che nel principio poco cambi....
non dovrebbe cambiare dal lato carburatori ma dal lato testa sono completamente diversi. Come senz'altro sai.
Non credo che in quel caso i monconi che ho io possano tornare utili.
Però... il collettore doppio se non ricordo male è già stato duplicato. Immagino che un 3D o un cad ci sia già.
Dovreste provare dai cugini del g4t. Sempre che esista e che lo vogliano condividere.
Ero contento per i collettori singoli '89, quelli sono realmente "introvabili".
Ovvio che si sopperisce in vari modi alla mancanza, ma se uno lo volesse uguale all'originale avrebbe serie difficoltà di trovarlo in condizioni buone o pari al nuovo.
Boh, se servono i monconi che ho io li ricerco in garage. Mi pare di non averli dati via con la moto...
@federosso & @fanelliale,
I'm sorry for my absence during todays conversations.
Thank you federosso for the interesting pictures of the split manifold, and also for the link to the other thread (http://www.gilera-bi4.it/public/forum/index.php/topic,15642.0.html (http://www.gilera-bi4.it/public/forum/index.php/topic,15642.0.html)).
The problem with the manifold(s) is obviously a big one; out of production, and when you finally find them (new or used) the rubber might be suffering from age deterioration.
Thankfully there are many skilled people here on the forum that are dedicating time and effort in finding a permanent solution!
From an engineering standpoint it should definitely be possible to find a satisfactory solution that could be produced in series (from a 3D model/engineering drawing), but I am not sure that I can contribute more, to solve this problem, than the wonderful people of this forum that are already involved in finding the best solution. :smiley:
The intake manifold I am going to use for my project will be a completely different one from the various original Bi4 intake manifolds, but when I find a Nordwest intake manifold, I will happily scan/model/design a possible solution that can be produced in series for the forum.
The RC600, as you have already pointed out federosso, is a different design than the Nordwest, but it could share most of the same engineering principles with regards to designing an alternative solution to the original parts.
I appreciate your enthusiasm and comments, thank you guys!
A little side project while I'm waiting for parts to arrive in the post :smiley:
These calipers (Sx & Dx) will also be part of the project I'm doing, that I will reveal in due time, but for now I'm just digitizing parts to go into the main model.
I love Brembo CNC parts, so nice! :ita
Ollallà, splendid work, it seems to be a photo, not a "drawing" :falice:
Thank you Matte, much appreciated!
I wanted to do a proper measuring/modelling and rendering job to justify the beauty of this classic racing caliper!
Also, I need an accurate caliper geometry to design the caliper mounting brackets, which I will eventually get cnc machined (when I can afford it). :smiley:
PS: I see now that there are some cut-outs missing on the caliper! :azz: Back to work for me, update soon!
Really as real!!!!!!
I'm glad you enjoy the pictures vninja! :smiley:
Cut-outs are now included (underneath the bolts).
peccato che non hai modellato la pinza brembo p4 30/34 a doppio perno ... sarebbe servita a me! http://www.gilera-bi4.it/public/forum/index.php/topic,21975.msg209280.html#new (http://www.gilera-bi4.it/public/forum/index.php/topic,21975.msg209280.html#new)
Ovviamente scherzo! Stai facendo un bel lavoro.
(automatic translation)
pity that you have not modeled the p4 30/34 double pivot caliper ... it would have served me! http://www.gilera-bi4.it/public/forum/index.php/topic,21975.msg209280.html#new (http://www.gilera-bi4.it/public/forum/index.php/topic,21975.msg209280.html#new)
Obviously I am joking! You're doing a good job.
Good morning federosso,
If we were in the same country/county; I could have helped you with designing a caliper-adapter for your Tracer. :smiley:
With regards to the ABS system; I would compare the piston diameters of the different calipers; from what I understand an ABS system is "tuned" to the piston diameters of the calipers, and if the calipers are replaced with calipers of different diameter pistons, the ABS system might remove too much/too little brakefluid during braking, which of course would counteract your intention with doing a brake-upgrade.
Buongiorno federosso,
Se fossimo nello stesso paese / contea; Potrei averti aiutato con la progettazione di un adattatore per pinza per il tuo tracer. :smiley:
Per quanto riguarda il sistema ABS; Vorrei confrontare i diametri dei pistoni delle diverse pinze; da quello che ho capito un sistema ABS è "regolatao" sui diametri del pistone delle pinze, e se le pinze vengono sostituite con pinze di pistoni di diverso diametro, il sistema ABS potrebbe erogare troppa / troppo poca forza frenante durante la frenata, il che naturalmente neutralizza la tua intenzione con un aggiornamento del freno.
^Google Translate
Interessante.
Ė da approfondire.
Automatic translation
yours is an interesting observation that becomes important to me.
I do not want to go to OT in your important and beautiful topic.
Thank you for the offer of help, but I have no problems with the 2D-3D design (I'm a product / industrial designer) are programs that I use regularly even if not for engineering purposes but mainly related to the shape of the products.
The other TOPIC I had opened to understand exactly where to put the new caliper.
So as to make an exact design of the spacer.
The topic remains useful but your observation on ABS could seriously change the feasibility and usefulness of the work in my specific case.
NOTE for tracer:
original caliper = 27 / 30.23 (cylinder diameters)
brembo caliper (from ducati monster 620) = 30/34
Original pump = diameter 15
Monster 620 pump = diameter 15
Equal lever fulcrum distance
Original disc = diameter 282
Disc Monster 620 = diameter 300
For now, thank you.
Ciao federosso,
Grazie per le vostre gentili parole su questo thread, lo apprezzo!
Hai un background tecnico interessante, in un paese come l'Italia ci devono essere dei lavori davvero interessanti e gratificanti nella tua professione!
Speriamo che il potenziale problema dell'ABS sia risolvibile, per consentire la sostituzione dei calibri. I cambiamenti nel volume del liquido dei freni sono piuttosto piccoli, tuttavia l'effetto di questi cambiamenti può essere potenzialmente piuttosto significativo (e persino pericoloso) quando la leva del freno viene azionata.
Vi auguro buona fortuna per il vostro progetto! :smiley:
^Google Translate
Startet printing some parts, first off the cylinder head top cover!
The resolution is 0.4mm per layer, so it's quite coarse, but this first print is just to see if the model prints properly, and to confirm if I need to make some adjustments to the printing process.
I'm printing the cylinder head itself right now, it will be finished later today, and I will try to upload some pictures if the print is successful. :smiley:
That's so cool! very curious to see the final result :cinema:
lucakilm, thank you very much for your comment and interest in my project, I appreciate it! :smiley:
Here is an update!
The first picture shows the cylinder head during test printing, the filling is only 10% (due to time constraints), but the results were surprisingly good, some small defects, but otherwise pretty much what I was hoping to achieve!
The second picture shows the finished print, including the support material required to enable printing all the overhanging geometry (all unsupported geometry below 45 degrees from horizontal), it was quite an elaborated cleaning job to remove all the support material, but "digging" out the cylinder head from the support material is part of the excitement. :smiley:
nice, very nice job! :foto:
Excellent, in this manner you should build the complete model in plastic. [first]
May be you should also sell the model to the fan that would like to have a Totem of Gilera in the living areas just in front to the the sofa. [saggio]
How much does it could cost? I mean the complete engine model. [nerd]
yumax, thank you very much for your kind comment, I appreciate it! :smiley:
I am definitely going to 3D print the whole model in this scale (1:3 scale), and I will be bolting the whole model together using unbrako screws (ISO 4762), I will try to make it as close to the original as possible.
The next part to be printed will be the cylinder, and after that will be the crank case halves, hopefully I'll have these main parts bolted together in the next couple of weeks, I'm waiting for a few parts to arrive in the post, and I will be scanning/modelling/printing these parts as soon as they arrive!
Regarding potential sale of a complete model; I am not sure if I will get in trouble (Piaggio copyright?) for selling a model like this? Also, I haven't given any thought as to what something like this would cost. :boh: :smiley:
automatic translation
I do not want to make you take bad roads but I think that Piaggio will have nothing to say about anything if you do not use original logos.
From a legal point of view.
From a real point of view I do not think that piaggio will create problems even if you use original logos.
Thank you for your comment federosso, I would never do anything to upset Piaggio. :smiley:
This is a pure enthusiast object, and a potential sale of a model would be from one enthusiast to another enthusiast, unofficially!
Grazie per il tuo commento federosso, non farei mai niente per sconvolgere Piaggio. :smiley:
Questo è un puro oggetto entusiasta, e una potenziale vendita di un modello sarebbe da un appassionato ad un altro appassionato, in via non ufficiale!
^Google Translate
indeed! :) :fuma:
for me there are no problems if you want to make these "replicas" in miniature.
I think they would be very nice and if the price that comes out is "right" you would have many fans who would like them.
Piaggio would never notice the thing. : D :up:
(automatic translation)
This model is 100% dedicated to my love for Gilera, and it is very enjoyable for me to show my work to fellow Gilera enthusiasts! :beer:
When the model is finished I will make a proper presentation for the model, and people in the forum can help decide an eventual price. :moto
Questo modello è dedicato al 100% al mio amore per Gilera, ed è molto bello per me mostrare il mio lavoro agli amici appassionati di Gilera! :beer:
Quando il modello è finito farò una presentazione adeguata per il modello, e le persone nel forum possono aiutare a decidere un eventuale prezzo. :moto
^Google Translate
Splendid work, Duranti :laugh: . This is a small step for a man, but a great jump for gilera's enthusiasts........ :fuma: :fuma: [banana] . Bravo, bravissimo :moto
Matte, I truly appreciate your kind comment! :beer:
Today I'll be printing the cylinder, hopefully it turns out nice, I'll be posting pictures when it's ready! :smiley:
I finally got some more parts printed!
The new parts are; cylinder, cylinder head gasket, oil filter and filler cap.
Next up is the thermostat housing mounted on the cylinder, and after that is the gear lever.
I'm waiting for a new sprocket to arrive in the post, as well as some other small parts. My plan is to incorporate a bearing to enable rotation of the sprocket, should be a nice little realistic effect. :smiley:
For the side covers I will be using a gold pearl ABS filament, should make for a good finish and look of the parts.
The plan for this project started with making a complete 3D model for using in a design, but now I'm having so much fun putting together this little model, and it is taking over the priority! :moto
Slurp, slurp, it's growing very well [banana]
:moto
Very very good :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Thank you all for finding my project entertaining, I really appreciate it! :beer:
Got the right hand side crankcase printed today, it took around 9 hours!
I am pretty happy with how it turned out, some small defects due to support material density (PLA), but I will solve this when printing with ABS.
The pictures show good detailing despite printing in "normal" mode on the Ultimaker 2+, and only the smallest of details, like the text right below the cylinder, was automatically merged with the rest of the geometry. Overall the result was acceptable!
Before I print the left hand side crankcase I need to get some details in place, like the sprocket, seals and shift lever shaft, because there is going to be some movement in the sprocket and shift lever. :smiley:
The last picture shows my "workshop", haha!
Fantastic, very beautiful. You are as a wizard.
beautiful too your workshop!
Thank you so much for your kind comments vninja, I sincerely appreciate it! :smiley:
I am doing my best possible work to honour this legendary engine, and I am having alot of fun seeing these small coming out of the 3d printer!
Hopefully I will have more parts ready this week, stay tuned! :smiley:
Amazing, Duranti, congratulations, the "little" engine is becoming real :moto [banana]
Matte, thank you very much for your kind comment, I am glad you are enjoying the progress of this project! :smiley:
I got the thermostat housing completed today, a small part, but it is a sweet little piece of engineering, very well made and built to last. I will try to 3d print the model today. :smiley:
shame on me for not following this topic as it should deserve
Eager to see that great final result.
IMHO you should change your name from duranti to Canova.... (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Canova)
Impressive work ... wow ... :up: :up:
@bigbore / @Mike58 Thank you for your kind comments, very much appreciated, I am humbled! :smiley:
Eventhough this process, of scanning/measuring/modelling and printing, has taken much more time than I intially anticipated, and it's been very challenging, I am still only trying to replicate the outstanding work of the engineerings/designers/craftsmen who did this fantastic work before 1985 (!), which is amazing to me considering the availability (or lack of) of 3d modelling software, casting simulation software (like Magma), and so on in the early 80's.
I have personally designed complex steel castings in my previous work, and I can appreciate the amount of work it takes to go from idea to finished product, and how many iterations a part goes through before it is ready for series production, it's a very elaborate process. With this in mind, I can only marvel at the skill and determination it takes from all the people involved in designing/manufacturing/testing and series producing an engine like the Bi4, it is a huge task, and I have the greatest of admiration for these people! :smiley:
It's been slow progress lately in my project, I am waiting for parts to arrive, but I am well under way with modelling the sprocket cover, and some small parts. Today I will be printing the round oil pressure switch cover located under the alternator cover (PN 321715). I've been trying to find this cover on Ebay, but I've been unable to, so I have 3d modelled it based on dimension given by CFASD: http://www.gilera-bi4.it/public/forum/index.php/topic,12082.0.html (http://www.gilera-bi4.it/public/forum/index.php/topic,12082.0.html)
If it prints ok and fits nicely, I'll be sharing the 3d file for anyone to download and print themselves :smiley:
Ciao Duranti posso altro che farti i complimenti per la caparbieta con cui perseveri nel tuo lavoro! Perdonami non parlo Inglese e non ho ben capito a cosa può portare tutto questo lavoro.
Ciao Topogigi :smiley:
Grazie per il messaggio e il commento positivo, lo apprezzo!
Il mio piano è di usare questo modello 3d per due scopi; numero uno, è quello di utilizzare il modello per aiutarmi a progettare un telaio per adattarlo al motore (e a tutte le sue parti associate) nel miglior modo possibile. Il secondo scopo è quello di creare questo modello stampato in 3D, per puro piacere, e forse anche (se il risultato è di qualità sufficientemente alta), da vendere ad altri appassionati di Gilera.
In ogni caso, è un sacco di lavoro per essere un progetto entusiasta, ma mi sto divertendo a fare questo progetto, quindi ne vale la pena! :moto
^ Google Translate
Getting closer, more parts in place! :smiley:
Made a quick model also of the oil level inspection cover (as per Romolo's description: http://www.gilera-bi4.it/public/forum/index.php/topic,7107.15.html (http://www.gilera-bi4.it/public/forum/index.php/topic,7107.15.html)), looks alot like the one used on the RC750R, however I think that sightglass is bigger, perhaps with M20-M26 threads.
Duranti, grazie della risposta! La passione vera che hai tu, crea un forza di volontà che ti premiera' nei tuoi futuri lavori, continua così!
Topogigi, grazie mille per l'ispirazione, lo apprezzo! :smiley:
Questo progetto è molto divertente da mettere insieme, è uno dei motori più belli realizzati, e ho messo un sacco di orgoglio per ottenere il miglior risultato possibile! :ita
Go on, Duranti, go on [banana] . I really appreciate the new parts you made :moto
Thank you very much Matte, I'm happy you are enjoying the parts! :beer:
Things have been going slowly lately, I will soon get some new parts in the post that will make things more interesting. :smiley:
Below are pictures of the thermostat housing, these parts are tiny, and they are not perfect, I will change the print settings before making another pair. But for now I think they will look good once they are mounted to the cylinder using M1.6 bolts! The M1.6 bolts are not to scale with regards to thread size, but the unbrako heads are closer to scale than using M2 bolts, since the heads of the bolts are sized with a different set of parameters relative to the thread sizes.
I will be using M3 threaded rod for the connection between crankcase, cylinder and cylinder head, again, not perfect to scale, but close enough to do the job.
Either way, I think it's appropriate to bolt the engine together using real bolts, rather than go for a cheap and dirty solution, like glue, no thanks! :smiley:
Hi Duranti! that oil level check window is very nice. I was about to design one, this that you have it's pretty effective. If possible could you post a couple of pictures so that I can try to reproduce it?
By the way: what you're doing it's so cool!!
Good evening lucakilm,
I'm glad you enjoy the project, I appreciate your support!
I sent you a PM regarding the oil level indicator.
BTW, got some more parts in the post today, I'll be posting more pictures soon, thank you all for your patience and support! :beer:
Hello friends,
Sorry for the delay in updating, but now; finally a new update to the Bi4 1:3 scale project! :smiley:
I got my hands on the Ultimaker ABS Gold Pearl filament for the engine covers, and today I have printed the left hand side crank case cover, as well as the alternator cover. The results are pretty good, not perfect, but not too bad! The text on the covers were excluded/lacking in the print, due to the down scaling, and I will have to make adjustments to the settings for these features, but eventually they will be good!
Also the convex geometry of the alternator cover needs to be printed with finer resolution to make it smoother. All parts will be hand finished at the end to smooth out the rough edges. :smiley:
Tomorrow I will print the right hand side crank case cover, and some plugs associated with it, should be interesting to see the results, I will post pictures asap when it is finished. :smiley:
Hope you guys enjoy the results, have a good evening!
Great job, Trond. Ending your efforts, if anybody will not detect and value the smaller scale, he will confuse with a real engine, just assembled and ready to be installed in a frame and switched on ...
Definitely astonishing!
Next step! A Saturno or ... tube 1:3 3d printed frame to support such a jewel.
With my genuine admiration,
Maurizio
Maurizio,
I sincerely appreciate your kind words, it means alot to me to have your attention for my project, I am humbled, thank you so much for the inspiration and support! :smiley:
The beautiful Saturno would be a dream to realize in 1:3 scale, it would be an epic project, and definitely possible to realize. :smiley:
I have only ever seen one Saturno for sale in Norway, sadly I did not have money at the time, it was sold quickly to a collector I believe.
Tomorrow I will post pictures of the right hand side crank case cover, should be an interesting part to see in 1:3 scale!
Fantastico complimenti :ita :ita :ita
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :up: :up: :up: :up:
Well done, my friend, well done [banana]. As always...... :ballo:
seelvdb, marco70 and Matte, thank you all for your kind support, I sincerely appreciate it, and I'm glad you are enjoying the project! :beer:
I'm warming up the printer right now to start printing the right hand side crank case cover, hopefully it will turn out good, I will post pictures as soon as it is finished! :smiley:
This time, as promised, the right hand side crank case cover, in Gold Pearl ABS. :smiley:
The ABS is quite a bit more difficult to work with than the standard PLA material that most people 3d print with, and detailing is ok, not perfect, but good enough for the first test print of the parts. :smiley:
It does look quite good together with the right hands side crank case through, and when the bolts are in place, as well as all the small parts, it will look great!
Next are both the crank case halves in ABS. I have printed the right hand side crank case half in PLA (as shown in the pictures), but the whole engine will be printed in ABS and PC, since PLA does not like the sun very much. Stay tuned! :moto
Just a curiosity, what about cost of the different materials (pla, abs, pc) you are using to print the engine?
Hi Matte,
Here are some approximate prices in Norway for 750 gram rolls of 2.85mm filament:
PLA - 50,- Euro
ABS - 50,- Euro
PC - 70,- Euro
Generally filament is approximately the same price in Norway as in the rest of Europe I believe, but the problem in Norway is that there are only two importers of the Ultimaker filament, and they import the most basic selection of filament, but the price is good (since almost everything else is very expensive in Norway).
The import price limit in Norway, before tax is activated, is around 35 Euro (and that includes the shipping cost), so importing filament is not an advantage.
For example; if I import something that costs 36 Euro (shipping included), the government adds their own administration fee, which is minimum around 20 Euro, and tax for the item is 25% of item price and shipping cost, so the final price would be 65 Euro.
With that said; you can create a lot of parts from one roll! :smiley:
The biggest parts in the Bi4 project consume around 5-8 meters of filament, and one roll is around 90 meters, so there is a lot of fun in one roll of filament! :smiley:
Ok, thanks a lot for the complete answer :moto
My pleasure Matte! :beer:
Hi friends,
Finally a milestone; I was able to assemble some parts, I got the "cylinder/cylinderhead bolts" in the post yesterday, they are M3 size (!), and I test mounted the parts, and it's looking good! :moto
The parts fit together very well, no tweaking, just bolt together after creating the M3 threads in the crank case.
I am now in the process of optimizing the crank case halves to get a stronger and more reliable 3d print, I will be printing the left hand side crank case half today if I get time, and I will post an update as soon as I have it ready! :smiley:
It looks like the real one........... :falice:
:ola:
wonderful job Duranti [banana] [banana] :ita :ita :clap: :clap: :ciao: :ciao: :up: :up:
Matte, marco70 and milo, thank you very much for your support, I'm happy you're enjoying the progress and seeing the miniature Bi4 come together! :beer:
Right now I'm printing the plugs for the kick starter shaft and kick starter lever, should be finished any minute, will post pictures asap! :smiley:
Ok, waiting to see them.
Good evening Matte!
Sorry for the delay in posting, I printed the plugs, and immediately after the print was finished I started printing a new cylinder in ABS, and then I noticed that 1:1 scale tolerances scaled down to 1:3 scale did not work well with 3d printing, I had to have a more "forgiving" tolerance. :smiley:
Anyway, the cylinder printed very well in ABS, and the surface finish is much better than PLA, which is a good thing for the project, since most parts will be made in ABS material.
Also in the pictures you can see the plugs isolated, and in place in the right hand crank case cover, and it looks pretty good. :smiley:
Tomorrow I will print the sprocket cover, and the oil pressure switch cover, both in black ABS. :moto
Have a good evening friends!
It's really wonderful job!!! :foto: :foto: :foto:
I'm curious to see the final result.
Fantastic!!
great great great!
That thing is a perfect toy for every gilera's fan.
An assembly kit for christmas would be a perfect present.
A small audio chip and a little transducer will give "voice" to that model.... imagine pushing a button and hear Bi4 sound!
Now Trond, consider this: create all parts with grey ABS filament, then leave to the customer's ideas to paint those parts. In my idea this will save time and money during printing process and, by using a coating followed by two-three layers of paint will surely hide, or at least smooth, those small imperfections due to printing process.
Then appearance will be perfect.... IMHO
Look at this:
[attachimg=1]
Could you tell it's a 172mm lenght model?
Spoiler
http://www.tamiya.com/english/products/14133/index.htm
Would be great to 3D print all parts of a gilera saturno 1/5 scale then have fun assembling it.
I kit tamiya in 1/12 (ed i pochi in 1/6) sono il top in campo plastimodellistico :ballo: . Trond is doing something of similar, except perhaps for the surface finishing, but it's absolutely normal. And he is creating a little jewel :mot
PS: the idea of Big (using the same material for all parts) I think is really good, if you want to produce and sell some kits of your engine.
Citazione di: bigbore il 30 Settembre 2018, 22:06:53
great great great!
That thing is a perfect toy for every gilera's fan.
An assembly kit for christmas would be a perfect present.
A small audio chip and a little transducer will give "voice" to that model.... imagine pushing a button and hear Bi4 sound!
Now Trond, consider this: create all parts with grey ABS filament, then leave to the customer's ideas to paint those parts. In my idea this will save time and money during printing process and, by using a coating followed by two-three layers of paint will surely hide, or at least smooth, those small imperfections due to printing process.
Then appearance will be perfect.... IMHO
Look at this:
[attachimg=1]
Could you tell it's a 172mm lenght model? Spoiler
http://www.tamiya.com/english/products/14133/index.htm
Thank you for the inspiration and enthusiasm yumax, bigbore and Matte, I sincerely appreciate it!
The R1M model is absolutely incredible, truly an amazing piece of downscaling, Tamiya have always been masters of the art of scale modelling!
The surface quality of the Bi4 model would be better with a more advanced 3D printer, especially a Stereolithography printer would make for incredible prints, but those printers are sadly beyond my wallet size these days (running a one person engineering company in Norway is not very lucrative, haha).
An all-grey model to allow for customers to paint it themselves would make for a great surface finish, a very good idea bigbore, I will definitely consider that! :beer:
A sound module would also be very cool, and indeed a great addition to a project like this, and it would be relatively easy to implement, I know that for example Tamiya has those available from their truck range, I will investigate.
I have a few Saturno parts laying around, and I was seriously thinking about building a Saturno racebike some time ago, but finding parts is difficult so I cancelled the project.
A 1:5 scale Saturno though, would be serious fun to put together, and I would love to have one standing on the shelf! Some day if I manage to get hold of a Saturno restoration project, I will take it apart, and scan the parts! :moto
I printed the sprocket cover today, it came out pretty good, some small defects, nothing I can't fix with adjusting the print settings. Right now I'm printing the cambelt cover in ABS, I have made some small modifications to get it to fit perfectly, I will post pictures when it's finished!
Citazione di: Duranti il 01 Ottobre 2018, 11:36:46
running a one person engineering company in Norway is not very lucrative, haha
can't be worse than running a one man IT company in italy :nooo:
bigbore, you are probably right. :(
We are living in times where there are too many people/companies competing for the same jobs, it's very difficult to stand out from the crowd. In Norway it's very common that the people who get the jobs, are in family (or friends) with the employers, and outsiders (like me) have a painful time trying just to stay afloat, sadly it's probably the same everywhere.
In my hand I have the new ABS cambelt cover on the left, and the PC cambelt cover on the right, somehow the ABS gives better detailing with the same accuracy setting. The ABS is more matt than PC, and not as strong, but I prefer detailing over strength in this case, so for now I will use the ABS cover. :smiley:
The print looks abit coarse in the picture, but in reality it is quite smooth, the layer thickness is 0.15mm! On convex surfaces (like the alternator cover) the layerlines are more apparent, but still pretty smooth.
Tomorrow I will print the left hand side crank case half, then the engine will have all the major components in place, should be interesting to see! :moto
:up: :up: :clap: :clap:
Hi Duranti,
Talking about the cost, nowadays how much did you spent for realise this model?
By your opinion is it possible replay the model for sell it?
Bello!
Hi yumax,
Sorry for the delayed reply, I turned off the pc early yesterday. :smiley:
Regarding cost, well, it's difficult to put a price on the work that has been done this far on the 3D CAD model and 1:3 scale model, I have spent around 4 months, on and off, around 300 hours to get to the results of today. But, it is important to remember that this is a pure enthusiast project, time and money spent can never be justified when it comes to enthusiast projects! :smiley:
The 1:3 scale model is definitely possible to replicate, no problem, it takes time though, and filament; approximate time spent to 3d print a whole engine (with 10% infill) would be around 60 hours, and filament usage is around 1 roll of filament.
The cost of a complete engine is difficult to decide as it is a labour of love, rather than something to earn money from, perhaps we could make a poll and collectively decide? :smiley:
It's great fun to see so many Gilera fans appreciate this project and the resulting 1:3 scale engine, thank you all! :beer: :ita
Duranti, my congratulations, very good project and done really well!!!!!
Valter
Valter,
Thank you very much for your positive and inspiring comment! :beer:
I am warming up the printer right now to start printing the left hand side crank case half, tonight I will post the results! :smiley:
Congratulations great work :clap: :clap:
How much would it cost to buy one?
:ciao:
Citazione di: marco70 il 02 Ottobre 2018, 13:52:22
Congratulations great work :clap: :clap:
How much would it cost to buy one?
:ciao:
Leggi tre interventi più sopra ...
M.
Citazione di: marco70 il 02 Ottobre 2018, 13:52:22
Congratulations great work :clap: :clap:
How much would it cost to buy one?
:ciao:
marco70,
Thank you for your kind comment, I really appreciate it! :beer:
I will make a summary at the end of the build, and we will get a better overview of what is possible with regards to price, hopefully it will be possible to sell a kit for a price that most enthusiasts can justify paying for a scaled down Bi4.
Also; a poll to decide a price would be interesting. :smiley:
Citazione di: Duranti il 02 Ottobre 2018, 10:08:21
Hi yumax,
Sorry for the delayed reply, I turned off the pc early yesterday. :smiley:
Regarding cost, well, it's difficult to put a price on the work that has been done this far on the 3D CAD model and 1:3 scale model, I have spent around 4 months, on and off, around 300 hours to get to the results of today. But, it is important to remember that this is a pure enthusiast project, time and money spent can never be justified when it comes to enthusiast projects! :smiley:
The 1:3 scale model is definitely possible to replicate, no problem, it takes time though, and filament; approximate time spent to 3d print a whole engine (with 10% infill) would be around 60 hours, and filament usage is around 1 roll of filament.
The cost of a complete engine is difficult to decide as it is a labour of love, rather than something to earn money from, perhaps we could make a poll and collectively decide? :smiley:
It's great fun to see so many Gilera fans appreciate this project and the resulting 1:3 scale engine, thank you all! :beer: :ita
Hi guy, thanks for replay,
for sure the bill, considering the spent time, it will be enormous, is the reason why you should consider to make some profit producing some quantity of this model.
For sure, when and if you will consider to "produce" the model, you could count on the fans of Bi4 in this forum.
My suggestion, in case, is to count as soon as possible the possible adhesion on project.
Never say never you know!!
Good evening yumax,
Thank you very much for your encouraging words, I appreciate it!
If I can manage to achieve a model of high enough quality to be able to sell it, I will for sure consider selling some kits to enthusiasts who would want to own a 1:3 scale Bi4!
With that in mind, I will follow your advice yumax; If anyone is interested (no commitment) in owning a kit, let me know in a PM, thank you. :smiley:
It looks like the left hand side crank case half will be finished during this night, I will post pictures tomorrow. :moto
Have a good evening friends!
Left hand crank case half is ready, almost, well, it finished yesterday night, and when checking the results this morning I realized that the G-code was not perfect, the sprocket area was sadly not correct..
I am currently printing a new piece, with small alterations implemented, hopefully it will turn out good!
Below are some pictures of the crank case half, it looks pretty good, the grey ABS prints better than both the black ABS and gold ABS, I do not know why as they should print with the same results, but the grey has better detailing and smoother surface with the same settings applied in the CURA software. The other lighter grey parts are printed in PLA, but will eventually be replaced by ABS pieces.
Anyway, I hope you enjoy the pictures, it's getting closer to the finishline! :smiley:
Always congratulations for your passion that you put in the project and that produces remarkable results ... I think the candle does not screw it .. :rotolol:
Thank you siplitaro, I'm glad you are enjoying the project! :beer:
Haha, I will of course make a 1:3 scale spark plug to fit the engine! :moto
This project has gone from being intended as a digital model only, and then becoming the 1:3 scale Bi4! There is still work to be done to get it as complete as possible, and I'm still searching for some parts, and waiting for other parts to arrive in the post, eventually the project will be complete, including the sparkplug, haha! :smiley:
A few pictures of the finished ABS left hand side crank case half, it printed with pretty good results. And also with M3 cylinder/head bolts threaded in place.
I have designed a solution to allow for the sprocket to rotate freely, using a twin 608 bearing supported PC shaft. I purchased a new sprocket one month ago on ebay, and I am still waiting for it to arrive (!) in the post, frustrating, I will soon have to purchase another one so that I can finish that area of the engine.
Also I will design a solution to allow the gear lever up/down movement, for a certain amount of realism! :smiley:
Tomorrow I will print an updated right hand side crank case half in ABS, the print process takes approximately 11 hours, which is (same as the left hand side) one of the longer prints I have done, but it's satisfying when it's finished and a beautiful part is revealed! :smiley:
Slurp slurp, delicious.......... :ballo:
Great job Duranti, wonderful !!!
Thank you 33new, I'm glad you are enjoying the build! :smiley:
I am printing the right hand side crank case half right now (see picture below), it should be finised this evening, I will post pictures as soon as it is ready! :moto
The print has 1.5mm wall thickness which makes it very ridgid, and allows for threads to be added (without compromising the integrity of the part), and 10% infill.
And now for the right hand side crank case half in ABS, it printed well! :smiley:
I downloaded the latest Ultimaker software yesterday (before printing this part), with some new updates, I especially enjoyed the new updated overhang settings, which improves the surface quality on overhanging areas (every surface supported by supportmaterial between horizontal and up to approximately 40 degrees). This improved the surface quality significantly!
One factor when printing ABS is the shrinkage while cooling down the finished part, the bigger the part the more shrinkage must be account for, but I have managed to keep dimensional stability on the crank case halves, and they align very accurately, which is nice!
Next up will be some small parts; spark plug and gear lever, I will post some pictures later today of the finished CAD models. :moto
I am searching for a set of Nordwest 600 E30PV2A carburators (the don't have to be working, just have to be complete), because this model has to have carburators to be complete! If anyone has a set for sale, please let me know in a PM, thank you. :smiley:
Here are some pictures of the gear lever scanned and modelled. The modelling was not easy, and it's not super accurate, this due to the gear lever being a "well used" part, and also initially it looks like it's a forged part, that has had the flash ground off, and after that it has been sandblasted, so the curves of the lever are very organic due to the different manufacturing processes it's been through before becoming a finished product. The general geometry though is very close in accuracy. :smiley:
A question for anyone who might know; I am searching for the correct UNI/ISO/DIN/JIS standard that is being used for the serrated spline (scanalato) used on the gear lever/shaft, does anyone know this information?
Here is a picture of the current state of the cad model, I have gotten a few more parts in place, and it looks pretty good!
There are still some parts that I am missing to finish the model;
*Gear lever shaft (321950)
*Raccordo (321731)
*Starter motor (328677) A defective unit will be perfect for me
*Starter motor holder/bracket (324718)
*Oil drain plug (328430)
*Oil Level Indicator (321838)
If anyone has any of these parts that you want to sell (also defective parts are of interest), let me know, thanks!
Hi Duranti
I'll try to translate what are you looking for in easy way for all friends.
*Gear lever shaft (321950) Asta comando cambio, quella che esce dal carter su cui viene fissata la pedivella del cambio particolare n° 15 del disegno qui stotto.
[attach=1]
*Raccordo (321731) Raccordo devio acqua particolare n°21 del disegno qui sotto
[attach=2]
*Starter motor (328677) A defective unit will be perfect for me Motorino di avviamento completo particolare n°2 del disegno qui sotto
[attach=3]
*Starter motor holder/bracket (324718) Non sono sicuro dovrebbe trattarsi dello scatolotto di attacco del motorino di avviamento versione frizionato particolare n°5 qui sotto
[attach=4]
*Oil drain plug (328430) Cartuccia filtro olio interna, particolare n°12 del disegno qui sotto
[attach=5]
*Oil Level Indicator (321838) spioncino livello olio particolare n°16 del disegno qui sotto
[attach=6]
Cross the finger Duranti may be someone could help you easily than before.
I have the little window 321838 but I have it far away from my home and I don't know when I can go there to pick up it.
It depend about your patient.
Hi Duranti, the UNI ISO 4156 should be the correct standard for the serrated spline :laugh:
Citazione di: yumax il 12 Ottobre 2018, 14:16:34
Hi Duranti
I'll try to translate what are you looking for in easy way for all friends.
yumax, thank you very much, I appreciate it!!! :beer:
Citazione di: Matte il 12 Ottobre 2018, 14:24:41
Hi Duranti, the UNI ISO 4156 should be the correct standard for the serrated spline :laugh:
Matte, thank you very much for your investigation, I appreciate it!!! :beer:
I will grab something to drink, and dive into investigating further, I think we are closing in on the correct standard and sub-category! :smiley:
It's a pleasure, Duranti, it's a pleasure :ballo:
The work continues, this time it's work on the intake, as well as sprocket assembly. :smiley:
I finally got hold of a set of carburetors, as well as an intake manifold (many thanks to Bob).
I'm scanning the carburetors seperately, right now, to achieve the best possible detailing, it takes more time, but the carbs are an important part of the engine, so it's worth the effort!
Also I'm working on a rotating sprocket assembly, using bearing to add to the realism. :smiley:
I had to replace the spline on the shaft/sprocket because the resolution is too fine to achieve on the printer, as can be seen in the picture.
Lately I have also been working on a 1:1 scale manifold to replace the original Nordwest 600 part, I will come back to this at a later date. :moto
always more beautiful good !!
:ciao: :ciao: :ciao:
marco70, I am glad you are enjoying the parts, thank you for your support and for following this project! :beer:
Today I finished scanning the right hand side carburetor, and I have included a picture of the scan inside the scanning program, the results are pretty good! Tomorrow I will scan the left hand side carburetor, after that I will import these parts into Fusion 360 and start the modelling process, should be fun, and I will post update as soon as I have something of interest to show you guys! :smiley:
Concerning the assembly shaft/sprocket, you could use this solution, even if it's not correct. What do you think about it?
Hello Matte!
Yes, I think it would be possible to use a straight sided spline, I would have to do some test-prints to see if I am able to achieve the desired resolution, as well as figure out the best tolerance, which is quite tricky with a combination of small dimensions like this (approx. 8.5 mm diameter) and 3d printing, but I will give it a try. :smiley:
It is also worth considering that the final drive shaft is hidden from view thanks to the large washer holding the pinion in place, so it will not be visible to the eye once it has been assembled, and due to the scale (and plastic material) a simplified alternative to spline (aka hexagonal) might be a more durable solution, I will do some tests and we will see. :smiley:
Hello friends,
First of all; WOW, this thread now has over 3000 views, thank you all for your interest in this project, and for following this rather lengthy build!!! :beer:
Hopefully I will be able to finish the 1:3 scale engine before the end of November, if I am able to find the remaining parts, but hopefully it will be worth the wait!!! :smiley:
I finally got the carburetors scanned, it was a difficult task because of all the geometry and areas that were out of range from normal scanning angles, but I have enough information now to start modelling the carburetors! Also the scanned carburetors will aid in designing the new NW replacement manifold I am working on, which is starting to take shape! :smiley:
Good work, as always :moto
Thank you Matte, I appreciate it! :beer:
Have a great weekend Gilera friends!
Tks Tiranti, too you!
ok Trond, this is your final test! 3DPrinting those carbs will be a rather complex task IMHO.
I think it's mandatory printing a single carb at a time and... maybe splitting in half (vertical plane) then glue togheter those two halves?
bigbore,
You are completely correct; printing the carbs might be the most difficult part of this entire build!
This also applies to the modelling process, since there are very few flat/straight faces due to the die casting process of the carbs, and there is alot of geometry that needs to be accurately captured in the 3d model.
Also, you and me think very much the same with regards to printing the carbs, I will print the carbs individually, and due to the nature of a single head FDM 3d printer (any overhanging angle below 45 degrees will be of lower quality surface) there will be compromises, so you are correct about maybe having to split the individual carbs into two pieces during printing, and combining them afterwards using either glue, internal clips, hidden screws, interlocking geometry, or a similar solution. This way we can achieve the highest fidelity compared to the original 1:1 geometry. :smiley:
I am also considering making a negative silicone mould to cast the carbs, individually, in one piece, I will explore this option as soon as I have completed the carbs in a conventional 3d printed format.
Either way, if I am able to achieve an acceptable quality final result for the carbs, I will be happy, because it will indeed be a difficult task! :smiley:
If you decide to cast the carbs, I suppose you will go to use a bicomponent epoxy resin...... :smiley:
Good evening Matte,
Regarding casting of the carbs; I have not investigated enough yet to decide which material to go for, but I have seen alot of excellent results using polyurethane, perhaps something like this would be a starting point for finding the best material for this application:
https://www.freemansupply.com/products/liquid-tooling-materials/fast-cast-polyurethanes/repro-fast-cast-urethanes (https://www.freemansupply.com/products/liquid-tooling-materials/fast-cast-polyurethanes/repro-fast-cast-urethanes)
First though I will give my 3d printer a chance, with the correct settings I should be able to get good results, time will show! :smiley:
Hi Trond, I confirm you that polyurethane should be a good alternative to the resin. Let's wait and see what your 3Dprinter will do.
Matte, thank you for the confirmation, I have very little experience with casting resins, and good advice is always appreciated! :beer:
Here is another link to a company called Smooth-On, which seems to be one of the big players in the casting resin industry, they seem to have just the right products for the Bi4 application:
http://www.smooth-on.com/product-line/smooth-cast/ (http://www.smooth-on.com/product-line/smooth-cast/)
Back to modelling the carbs now, they are very intricate aluminium castings with lots of features, and the non-proportional shrinkage (very difficult to get proportional shrinkage due to different cross-sections) during solidification which leads to slight ovality in the circular areas. So it's all about figuring out the design-intent during replication/reverse engineering, a challenging task, but great fun! :smiley:
No news?
Maurizio
Good day Maurizio, and Gilera friends!
Thank you for asking about news Maurizio, I appreciate it, and I was actually going to post pictures later today, and I will! :smiley:
Things have been going slowly lately, I have had a couple of customer projects going at the same time I have been working on the carbs, and I have to say; I truly underestimated the amount of work required to accurately model the carbs, they are a whole project in their own right!
Currently I am working on the last small bits on the left side carburetor, and it is quite complicated, since it is a die-casting it has drafts on most of the geometry, which takes longer to blend the features properly, but I'm almost finished, and the carbs look very good! I am finished with the carbs once these last bits are in place. :moto
At the same time I have been working on the new Nordwest inlet manifold, and I am currently sending quote requests for manufacturing of the parts. Soon I will have prices, to see if it will be possible to produce a couple of prototypes without breaking the bank, before producing a series of manifolds for sale. :smiley:
Thank you all for your patience in following this lenghty thread, you guys inspire me to complete this engine to the highest standard I can achieve! :beer:
Fine, thanks for the updating.
Maurizio
:ok:
Ok, Trond, let's wait for the carbs :moto
Good evening friends,
Sorry for the long wait, finally I was able to finish the carbs after much more detailing than I initially expected, wow, the carbs look quite simple, but they are in fact very complex!
I can only imagine how complex the die-casting dies are for parts like this, they must be a piece art to produce these intricate casting, very impressive!
For scanning the carbs I had to disassembled the carbs from the mounting rail to enable as good scanning coverage as possible, even then it was difficult to access all the geometry, but I was able to manually measure the geometry that was missing from the scan, so the final result is very complete and accurate.
Reproducing the carbs in 1/3 scale will be the biggest challenge yet in this build, I am considering splitting the models into several different parts to enable printing of these tiny parts, it will be very difficult, but I will give it a try, hopefully tomorrow I will start printing. I might have to merge some geometry to enable printing, but I will try my best to get the best possible detailing in the 3d print. :smiley:
Hope you enjoy the pictures, I am signing off for tonight, have a great evening friends!
Trond
PS: If anyone has a defective starter motor (and bracket) for sale, please let me know, I am interested in purchasing (to complete the model). :smiley:
Trond, really impressive, that's a great work [banana]
Immaginatevi di avere un kit da costruire il motore completo in scala del BI4 da tenere su un tavolo, scrivania!
Sarebbe fantastico. :up:
such a great work! :ok: :ok: :ok:
now the real challenge will be printing, I'm confident it will be another success.... go Trond, go!
:up: :up: :clap: :clap:
Thank you my friends for your kind words and inspiration!!! :beer:
I am still planning on the best way to print these carbs, I believe tomorrow will give some results, and prints, I will post pictures are soon as I have something to show you guys! :smiley:
Chi mi traduce in inglese la seguente frase per cortesia?
"porcaschifadiquellaput...nazza che lavorone!!" :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
pronti!
"lousysowofthatbitch.... such a great job!"
Io avrei tradotto con un ben più rapido e prosaico "minchia" :rotolol: [CFASD] [CFASD]
Citazione di: Matte il 07 Novembre 2018, 23:51:45
Io avrei tradotto con un ben più rapido e prosaico "minchia" :rotolol: [CFASD] [CFASD]
Sì, gli anglosassoni sono molto pratici. Poche lettere: "Fuck, what a job!". Ma anche noi in questi casi abbiamo la forma breve: "C@..o, che lavoro!"
Sorry Trond for the quick Off Topic ...
Hahaha, no worries, I enjoyed reading it (thanks to Google Translate) :beer:
I am working on my very limited Italian, I mostly just know the italian names of motorcycle parts, haha, it's a start at least!
Citazione di: Duranti il 06 Novembre 2018, 20:32:55
Good evening friends,
PS: If anyone has a defective starter motor (and bracket) for sale, please let me know, I am interested in purchasing (to complete the model). :smiley:
Hi Duranti, saturday I'll check in the Fair of old motorbike in Milano.
May I'll be lucky and find one for you.
Be patient.
Oh raga ma nessuno ha un blocchetto da dargli???
il motorino c'è (e pure buono) ma senza carterino pignone....mi spiace :boh:
Citazione di: yumax il 08 Novembre 2018, 21:19:49
Citazione di: Duranti il 06 Novembre 2018, 20:32:55
Good evening friends,
PS: If anyone has a defective starter motor (and bracket) for sale, please let me know, I am interested in purchasing (to complete the model). :smiley:
Hi Duranti, saturday I'll check in the Fair of old motorbike in Milano.
May I'll be lucky and find one for you.
Be patient.
Oh raga ma nessuno ha un blocchetto da dargli???
yumax,
I sincerely appreciate your time and effort, thank you very much for looking out for these parts! :beer:
Hi Duranti
I've both starter motor and support; give me your address and I'll send you in few days!
Thank you so much RC_true, I have sent you a PM! :smiley:
Citazione di: RC_true il 09 Novembre 2018, 14:14:32
Hi Duranti
I've both starter motor and support; give me your address and I'll send you in few days!
always a great man with so much heart! [first]
Indeed yumax, this community is truly blessed to have deeply passionate enthusiasts like RC_true among it's members! [first]
And I am sincerely grateful for all comments and contributors in this thread, all are very much appreciated, thank you friends! :beer:
Un bel bravo per RC :ballo:
Good evening friends!
The carburetors are proving to be a real pain in the neck to 3d print to an acceptable quality level, and I am still trying different approaches with regards to organizing the parts for printing, as well as the 3d printing settings, but I am getting closer!
They do not look good at the moment, but I have attached a couple of pictures to show you guys what I have right now, as a reference as to just how small and intricate these parts are! I am certain that I will achieve better results, but it's a process of trial and error before an acceptable result is achieved, and I need to reinforce some areas that are just to thin to print properly when scaled down to 1:3 scale.
Well, back to tuning the settings for me, have a nice evening friends, I will be back soon with better results! :moto
:cinema: :cinema:
It's quite good as first result :moto
:disp: :disp: :disp: :disp: i waaaaaaant ittttttttt :ballo: :ballo: :ballo:
fantastic!!
Trooooond!..... you did it!! [first]
Those carbs, despite some defects, look really great. I wouldn't complain using some files and/or sandpaper to smooth some details, then some paint and voilà le carburateurs son fait.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :up: :up: :up: :up: :ciao: :ciao: :ciao:
:RIR: [caffe] :beer: :beer: :RIR:
Good afternoon friends,
Thank you all so much for your support and kind words, I appreciate it!!! :beer:
This weekend (or monday evening) I will hopefully have the revised carburetors 3d printed and ready to show you guys, I have indentified some areas that need improvement and strengthening, also the detailing will be slightly better, stay tuned! :moto
Hi friends,
A while since the last update, I have been sick the past weeks, but now I have something very interesting to show you guys!
Romolo was very generous and helped me out with a starter and starter support, and a few days ago they arrived in the post!!! :beer:
I am deeply grateful for these parts, and honestly if feels great to have RC_true be part of this project, thank you!!! :smiley:
Now I have modelled the parts and put them into the main assembly, and they look great, in the coming days I will 3d print them, and post pictures!
I will also soon post pictures of the new carbs, they will be more rugged and hopefully better quality/detailing!
fantastic!!
:ok:
Congratulation to Romolo for the parts, and to you for scannering them :ballo: . Let's wait for the "real" components [banana]
Good evening friends,
Got the starter and starter support printed today, they came out pretty good, most details are preserved in the downscaling, and the parts align well with the mounts on the crank case halves! :smiley:
There is always a compromise with a single extruder FDM printer with regards to orientation of the parts during printing to achieve the best possible print, but until now most of the parts on the engine are possible to produce with minimal problems, except the carbs, they require more work, but after several different test prints the carbs are beginning to look good (I will try to upload pictures tomorrow)!
Next task now is to model some of the small parts, like clutch actuation arm, liquid cooling hose/manifold, sparkplug, drainplug and such, and then the model will be finished, or as finished as I can get it!
Thanks again to Romolo! :beer:
Nice components, bravo :falice:
Hello friends,
I hope you are all doing good!
Things have been going slow this past month, it's been a tough time with work and other things, so the progress of the Bi4 has been painfully slow, and it I feel bad about it.
However, I have spent a few hours of modelling to make a mock-up of the frame that will be housing the Bi4, and I thought you guys might enjoy a preview of what I will be working on for the future. :smiley:
Yesterday I got some small parts in the post, drainplug/filter and sprocket washer/bolt arrangement, I will be modelling these today, and I will post an update later today. :smiley:
Here is the drainplug/filter in 3D :smiley:
From what I understand there are two, variants of this part/assembly, one in all plastic (with metal mesh), and one, like the one I got, that has a brass plug with a plastic tube threaded into it.
Are there any other official versions? And also, does anyone know which is correct version for the Nordwest engine?
Sorry for the lack of progress, I have had a couple of part get lost in transit (as well as the M1.6 threading taps I ordered a couple of months ago), but I will try to have the engine completed this month if I get the M1.6 bolts in time! :smiley:
maybe I'm wrong but should be a brass plug with inner plastic tube holding a fine mesh as a filter :boh:
Hello bigbore,
Thank you for responding!
Then I will consider the brass/plastic version the correct on for the NW. :smiley:
The brass version seems much more rugged than the full plastic version, but cost-wise the plastic version must be cheaper to mass produce.
Either way it is an interesting design with regards to combining the drainplug with the oil pick-up filter, a very smart solution that I have not seen on any other engine that I've worked on. :smiley:
And here is the clutch actuation arm in 3D :smiley:
The spline between the arm and shaft is not accurate, I can't seem to find the correct standard, but I will update this when I finally find it!
Have a good evening friends, I'll be back with more updates this upcoming week. :moto
Duranti
It looks really amazing, bravissimo :ballo:
Matte, thank you, I am glad you are enjoying the pictures, these are some of the last bits before the engine is complete! :smiley:
I ordered a new M1.6 tap yesterday, hopefully is should arrive in a short time, and then the assembly of the engine will begin, using bolts, I a looking forward to it!
In the meantime I am working on creating 3D models of the parts I am going to use for the project that the Bi4 engine is intended for, and below is the rear Brembo caliper in 3D. :moto
Duranti that is not the Northwest brake caliper,
it is similar to that of RC ...congratulations for the job :ok:
Hi siplitaro,
Thank you for your kind comment, I appreciate it!
Indeed, that is not the NW caliper, nor the RC caliper, it's a Brembo and I believe the designation is "P32A" or "F04", a caliper that was used on many production (many small capacity and trials bikes), racing, and sidecar machines in the 80's and early 90's, a classic! Also used on the Saturno Corsa, Piuma, Bimota GB1, Ducati 851/888/926 Corsa and Britten V1000! :moto
:ok:
Hello friends,
It's been a while since the last update, December is always a slow month due to all the family activities and work related stress, but soon I will show some real progress!
A few days ago I received the M1.6 tap (see pictures), and I will hopefully start making threads between Christmas and new year's eve, and I will post pictures as soon as I have something to show you guys! :smiley:
Hopefully the long awaited bolts will arrive soon, and then the final assembly will begin!
In the mean time; Merry Christmas everyone, and thank you all for your support and interest in this long project, I appreciate every comment and view!!! :beer: :moto
Hi Duranti, merry christmas to you too!!
Merry Christmas Trond :falice:
Thank you yumax and Matte, I hope your Christmas celebrations have been great! :beer:
Thank you all for 2018, I have more projects I will share with you guys in 2019, but for now; happy new year friends, take care and stay safe!!! :moto
Best wishes for a good year and a good continuation for your projects :clap: :clap:
Hello
PS
keep us informed leg
Hi there, have a fun new year night and enjoy the 2019!!
Auguri!!
Happy new year for everybody :moto :jump: :jump:
Hi friends,
I hope the beginning of 2019 has been good to you all!
Finally I have started putting the engine together with the small M1.6 bolts (wow, it's been a long time!), and it's coming together well, the bolts are very well scaled to the 1:3 scale.
Thankfully after some testing I was able to avoid the thread bit alltogether by drilling with 1.3mm pilot hole and allowing the bolt itself to make the threads, which makes for a snug fit between the threads and bolt, and it feels very solid. :smiley:
Of course after ordering the long bolts for the crankcase itself, the supplier sent me the wrong bolts, so I will be bolting together as many parts as I can before the crankcase can finally be assembled.
Sadly it's very difficult to find small bolts like this in Norway, so I have to order from elsewhere, hopefully the new bolts will arrive quickly!
I am currently thinking of different display possibilities, and I am looking into purchasing, or designing, a diplay cabinet with turntable and LED lights, either way; something to keep dust away, and nicely display the details of the 1:3 scale Bi4. :moto
Fantastico! :up: :ok:
Splendid [banana] . For a display cabinet, you can also have a look to ikea, there are several types of cabinets available (in Italy, but I suppose in Norway too).
Thank you for your positive comments DAKOBG and Matte, I'm glad you enjoy the pictures! :smiley:
Matte, I will definitely check out Ikea, they certainly have a huge inventory, it would be great if I could find something there that would work, I have one of their warehouses not too far from where I live. Thanks for the suggestion. :beer:
Simply wonderful1
a new "must have" for the Bi4 enthusiast
Good evening luc, thank you for your kinds words, I'm glad you are enjoying the pictures :beer:
Tomorrow I'll be putting together some more parts, I will post pictures in the evening, stay tuned!
In parallel to finishing the 1:3 scale engine, I am considering doing a 1:1 design (using the Bi4 engine) based on the 70's Gilera 50 Touring, which I think is one of the most beautiful little motorcycles ever made, it could be an fun project. :smiley:
I'm eager to see all engine assembled.... c'mon Trond go ahead!!!!! show us... you the new Gianbologna
As a stand I would suggest a clear acrylic tube of suitable diameter, then a top cover and a bottom of same material supported by a fork tube or.... why not a complete fork.
I suggest an acrylic tube becouse any other shape will have corners, joints not matter how perfectly made, disturbing a perfect view.
As per gilera 50 touring, I see (never noticed before) there where also a different version with the exhaust system running on the right side.... I knew there was only a lower exhaust system...
:boh:
[attachimg=1]
bigbore, you are too kind, but I am just an enthusiast, the real sculpturing was done by the fantastic engineers and craftsmen/women at Gilera! :beer:
And here is an update with some of the parts test-fitted, alignment of the parts is close to perfect, and everything fits nicely, I hope you guys enjoy!
I will be printing the missing black parts on this side of the engine tomorrow, I will post pictures as soon as I have more to show! :smiley:
Soon I will also print the sidecovers in a finer resolution to show the text. :moto
And always more beautiful
very good
:good: :good: :good:
shock shock :ok: :ok: :ok: :up: :up: :up: :jump:
When series production?
fantasticazziiiiiii :nopanic: :nopanic: :fuma: :fuma: [banana] [banana] :ita :ita :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Great work and great assembly :ballo:
look at those carbs...
look at that cambelt cover...
look at..... all!
Thou Master of 3D printing, we humble ourselves in front of such masterpiece.
We genuflect at the presence of such work
We all stand still, speechless at such show of expertise
Shaping plastic matter giving tribute to the spirit of gilera
shakespeare? who was he? [CFASD]
fantastic, wonderful!!!!!!
Citazione di: DAKOBG il 21 Gennaio 2019, 22:35:13
shock shock :ok: :ok: :ok: :up: :up: :up: :jump:
When series production?
:idea:
Dear friends,
Thank you all so much for your kind words and positive response, I sincerely appreciate it! :beer: :ballo:
I am glad you are enjoying this huge (but small in size) project, many times I have asked myself if hundreds of hours of scanning, modelling and printing if worth the effort, but at the end of the day I always come back to my neverending enthusiasm for Gilera, which first startet when I saw the RC600 on television in the 1990 Paris Dakar, after that I became a fan for life, and now the engine is definitely my tribute to everything I love about Gilera! :moto :ita
bigbore; your mastery of poetry is a thing of beauty, and in my humble opinion, you could surely give Shakespeare a run for his money! :clap:
Regarding series production; I will put together a small series, of perhaps 10, when time allows, and we'll see what happens, I can't say more than that for now. :smiley:
Thank you again friends, I'll post some more pictures this evening, have a good day everyone!
Bravo and competent .. if you make me a Nordwest in miniature we walk around the house in winter :up:
:jump: :jump: :jump: :jump: :jump: :jump: :jump:
frankly speaking I appreciate a lot the job and the executor, you Duranti.
The perseverance and method show the animous you may have.
In case you decide to produce the small quantity of model let us know the cost, if is definitely not so expensive like a Piuma super series may be you can have in my self a first purchaser.
yumax,
I really appreciate your kind words regarding the project, and the work I have put into it, it's very inspiring to hear, thank you! :beer:
And I am glad you are enjoying this project!
Got some more parts printed yesterday (finished after bedtime); drainplug, temperature sensor cover, gear lever shaft seal, and oil filler cap, the parts are very small but important, and they came out with good detail.
I'll be trying to print out the gear lever today, hopefully it will turn out well, crossing fingers! :smiley:
Also I've been investigating bigbore's proposal to use an acrylic tube for the stand, and I believe that an acrylic tube, with led lights in the base, will make for a fantastic stand!
I will design it and put it together as soon my finances allow. :moto
:ok:
Hello friends,
Sorry for the long time between every update, things have been stressful after christmas, and I have had to get a second job (full time) to keep things going, which has lead to not much time left in the evenings to do what I love; to fuel my motorcycle interest!
Sadly I do not have any update on the engine, but I have spent a few hours in the evening this week and put together a Gilera speed cruiser concept that I have been wanting to do for a while! The concept is just in the beginning, but it's starting to look like something that could become an interesting bike, I hope you guys enjoy it! :moto
This weekend I will try to put together a display like the one described by bigbore, I will post some pictures as soon as I have something, thank you all for your patience! :beer:
ohhhhh!.... Trond!
Nice to hear you again.... we where..... greatly worried you may have been alien abducted (to keep you from going ahead with that model, 'couse planet heart is non ready yet) or kidnapped by some asiatics wanting you to make copies at industrial rate of that wonderful 1/3 model
Hahaha, dear bigbore, I am still alive and kicking, and I will for sure complete the 1/3 scale model, and I will for sure make a small series (this will be made only in my home, not in Asia, not ever!). :beer:
I am back to designing industrial equipment in my new job, but I spend as much time as possible in my free time to focus on the fun (and important) stuff, such as completing the 1/3 Bi4 engine, putting together my GB1 replica, and doing concepts such as the one above. :moto
Btw, I have done some more investigating regarding your suggestion bigbore, and it will be the best solution for the Bi4 display, there will also be a LED light to light up the acrylic tube, I can't wait to get it designed and built! :clap:
Trond?.... where are youuuuuu.....
did CIA get you?
Are you in guantanamo prison or some US black site?
No! I know.... you're hiding from piaggio's MIBs
I was asking myself the same thing....... :fuma: . Trond, we need some new, come oooooooooon :ballo: